randomWalks

Could you say it a few more times? I think someone in the back row didn't hear you.

Could you say it a few more times? I think someone in the back row didn't hear you.

Can you walk on water yet?

Can you walk on water yet?

Happy 8th birthday, or whatever you would call it!

Happy 8th birthday, or whatever you would call it!

i was raised mostly vegetarian, and i've been eating meat for about 3 years.

whatever floats makes you happy... ;-)

i was raised mostly vegetarian, and i've been eating meat for about 3 years.

whatever floats makes you happy... ;-)

ok that didn't work. I was gonna say "whatever floats your boat" or "whatever makes you happy". Somehow it just came out wrong.

ok that didn't work. I was gonna say "whatever floats your boat" or "whatever makes you happy". Somehow it just came out wrong.

I kind of like "whatever floats makes you happy," though it suggests, disturbingly, that such things as turds and dead people might make me happy.

I kind of like "whatever floats makes you happy," though it suggests, disturbingly, that such things as turds and dead people might make me happy.

i ate a monkey brain

i ate a monkey brain

I didn't post that so we could give three cheers for me. I posted it to get four good links in on an important topic. I'd gladly sink my boat if more people would go vegan.

/_o_

I didn't post that so we could give three cheers for me. I posted it to get four good links in on an important topic. I'd gladly sink my boat if more people would go vegan.

/_o_

Go Vegan!

Go Vegan!

One thing I saw lacking from all four linked sites, particularly the "Why Vegan?" link, was why the distinction between vegetarianism and vaganism. I fully understand not eating meat. I fully understand not eating animal products when the animals producing them are living inhumane lives. But I don't understand the refusal to eat eggs and dairy when those products can be obtained with no mistreatment whatsoever of the animal. I can offer eggs from the best-treated hens in the state of Georgia, but a vegan will refuse them. Why is that? The sites wouldn't say, and no vegan has been able to tell me.

One thing I saw lacking from all four linked sites, particularly the "Why Vegan?" link, was why the distinction between vegetarianism and vaganism. I fully understand not eating meat. I fully understand not eating animal products when the animals producing them are living inhumane lives. But I don't understand the refusal to eat eggs and dairy when those products can be obtained with no mistreatment whatsoever of the animal. I can offer eggs from the best-treated hens in the state of Georgia, but a vegan will refuse them. Why is that? The sites wouldn't say, and no vegan has been able to tell me.

I've been thinking about these things Eric brings up, primarily because I, too, collect bright-yellow-yolked eggs from a pair of obviously happy hens (I've seen them when they're not happy; I can tell the difference). Raising hens has reminded me just how profoundly distanced we are from the production of our food -- kids, adults, everyone is *amazed* to see eggs come out of chickens! Imagine! My chickens also have moods and emotions and the capacity to anticipate that something good will happen to them any next moment (they'll get out of their run! They'll get fed some fresh greens! They'll get to sit on my head! [Well, only one of them likes that.]) Which means they can also feel dread and misery. I'm rabidly against factory farming, but I just don't see what's wrong with raising my hens and eating their eggs.

Is the vegan argument against eggs a health issue, perhaps? And by the way, Eric, are you the guy with the Web site talking about how your chickens weed your garden? And did someone link your Web site to rW?

I've been thinking about these things Eric brings up, primarily because I, too, collect bright-yellow-yolked eggs from a pair of obviously happy hens (I've seen them when they're not happy; I can tell the difference). Raising hens has reminded me just how profoundly distanced we are from the production of our food -- kids, adults, everyone is *amazed* to see eggs come out of chickens! Imagine! My chickens also have moods and emotions and the capacity to anticipate that something good will happen to them any next moment (they'll get out of their run! They'll get fed some fresh greens! They'll get to sit on my head! [Well, only one of them likes that.]) Which means they can also feel dread and misery. I'm rabidly against factory farming, but I just don't see what's wrong with raising my hens and eating their eggs.

Is the vegan argument against eggs a health issue, perhaps? And by the way, Eric, are you the guy with the Web site talking about how your chickens weed your garden? And did someone link your Web site to rW?

Eric Wagoner is the proprietor of Kestrel's Nest, which has long been one of the links in rW's sidebar. Adam's been a fan for some time.

Eric Wagoner is the proprietor of Kestrel's Nest, which has long been one of the links in rW's sidebar. Adam's been a fan for some time.

Yes, I google'd him and found my way back to his very cool blog. I sent that scary chicken play to my neighbor, Steven, who's a playwright, a chicken fanatic and the guy who hatched my birds in an incubator. Thanks.

Yes, I google'd him and found my way back to his very cool blog. I sent that scary chicken play to my neighbor, Steven, who's a playwright, a chicken fanatic and the guy who hatched my birds in an incubator. Thanks.

Oops. I screwed something up. Anyway, read this: http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/09/a.shtml

Oops. I screwed something up. Anyway, read this: http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/09/a.shtml

Eric wrote:

"But I don't understand the refusal to eat eggs and dairy when those products can be obtained with no mistreatment whatsoever of the animal. I can offer eggs from the best-treated hens in the state of Georgia, but a vegan will refuse them. Why is that?"

The sites do say, if you look hard enough. So do books like Peter Singer's "Animal Liberation" and Ingrid Newkirk's "101 Things You Can Do For Animals." (These were the two that inspired me to veganism).

There are several different, in my opinion, very good reasons. One obvious one is for consistency. The goal of veganism is to avoid the use/consumption of animal products. For consistency, especially when keeping in mind things like "living by example" and that annoying cousin who is always looking for a hole in your argument, it makes sense to avoid that stuff entirely.

That to me is less important than the whole point of veganism. Veganism seeks to avoid (ab)use of non-human animals of any form, recognizing that all animals have senses, feelings, nervous systems, etc., and that they are as against being killed, hit, struck, abused, or used as any of us reading this are. So, I see no reasonable "excuse" to eat any animal product unless that animal has voluntarily submitted itself to the conditions under which she produced the egg / milk / product and also volunteered to give said product to a human (instead of keeping it and sitting on it [eggs] or giving it to a child [milk]). The same goes for honey and beeswax and any dairy product under the sun.

Using animal products in any way reinforces the whole concept of human domination and dominion over non-humans, and is, in my opinion, the equivalent of slavery or involuntary servitude. It is also interesting (is it just chance?) that the milk / eggs industry also reinforce the notion of domination over females.

On another note, there are obvious health benefits to avoiding that stuff as well. Milk is for babies, and cow milk is for baby cows. Human milk and cow milk are biologically very different in terms of nutrients or protein or calcium or fat or whatever. If you're a baby cow, go ahead and drink milk until you're no longer a baby. If you're not... well, you get the point. Eggs are power-packed with cholesterol, fat, and all sorts of other stuff that is supposed to nourish a growing bird embryo. Seems like that stuff is better left to the birds, literally.

On a related personal note, cooked eggs produce one of the most heinous smells I can think of.

I'm really surprised that you weren't able to find answers like mine on any of those veganism sites. Most of them do have frequently asked questions lists that include good questions ranging from "Don't plants have feelings too?" to "Where do vegans get B12?"

If you want, I can go ahead and look around for more information.

mk.

Eric wrote:

"But I don't understand the refusal to eat eggs and dairy when those products can be obtained with no mistreatment whatsoever of the animal. I can offer eggs from the best-treated hens in the state of Georgia, but a vegan will refuse them. Why is that?"

The sites do say, if you look hard enough. So do books like Peter Singer's "Animal Liberation" and Ingrid Newkirk's "101 Things You Can Do For Animals." (These were the two that inspired me to veganism).

There are several different, in my opinion, very good reasons. One obvious one is for consistency. The goal of veganism is to avoid the use/consumption of animal products. For consistency, especially when keeping in mind things like "living by example" and that annoying cousin who is always looking for a hole in your argument, it makes sense to avoid that stuff entirely.

That to me is less important than the whole point of veganism. Veganism seeks to avoid (ab)use of non-human animals of any form, recognizing that all animals have senses, feelings, nervous systems, etc., and that they are as against being killed, hit, struck, abused, or used as any of us reading this are. So, I see no reasonable "excuse" to eat any animal product unless that animal has voluntarily submitted itself to the conditions under which she produced the egg / milk / product and also volunteered to give said product to a human (instead of keeping it and sitting on it [eggs] or giving it to a child [milk]). The same goes for honey and beeswax and any dairy product under the sun.

Using animal products in any way reinforces the whole concept of human domination and dominion over non-humans, and is, in my opinion, the equivalent of slavery or involuntary servitude. It is also interesting (is it just chance?) that the milk / eggs industry also reinforce the notion of domination over females.

On another note, there are obvious health benefits to avoiding that stuff as well. Milk is for babies, and cow milk is for baby cows. Human milk and cow milk are biologically very different in terms of nutrients or protein or calcium or fat or whatever. If you're a baby cow, go ahead and drink milk until you're no longer a baby. If you're not... well, you get the point. Eggs are power-packed with cholesterol, fat, and all sorts of other stuff that is supposed to nourish a growing bird embryo. Seems like that stuff is better left to the birds, literally.

On a related personal note, cooked eggs produce one of the most heinous smells I can think of.

I'm really surprised that you weren't able to find answers like mine on any of those veganism sites. Most of them do have frequently asked questions lists that include good questions ranging from "Don't plants have feelings too?" to "Where do vegans get B12?"

If you want, I can go ahead and look around for more information.

mk.

Thanks for the answers. I understand and respect your position. It doesn't fit with my own experience, though.

My animals are not abused, but they are used. They use me, too, to obtain better food and shelter than they could find on their own. It's a symbiotic relationship than benefits both. My chickens (for example) could leave if they wanted, but at night they return to the house I have built for them.

I've read enough research from nutritional anthropologists and dietitians to not feel bad about eating dairy, eggs, and honey. But I had to read the research myself, as organizations with agendas tend to distort the facts.

You don't have to look for more information; I can find the general reasons from here. I was most interested in your personal reasons. Thank you!

P.S. Overcooking less than fresh eggs brings out a sulphur compound that smells not-so-good. Myself, I love the smell of properly cooking eggs.

Thanks for the answers. I understand and respect your position. It doesn't fit with my own experience, though.

My animals are not abused, but they are used. They use me, too, to obtain better food and shelter than they could find on their own. It's a symbiotic relationship than benefits both. My chickens (for example) could leave if they wanted, but at night they return to the house I have built for them.

I've read enough research from nutritional anthropologists and dietitians to not feel bad about eating dairy, eggs, and honey. But I had to read the research myself, as organizations with agendas tend to distort the facts.

You don't have to look for more information; I can find the general reasons from here. I was most interested in your personal reasons. Thank you!

P.S. Overcooking less than fresh eggs brings out a sulphur compound that smells not-so-good. Myself, I love the smell of properly cooking eggs.

Oh... judlew, last year I did a pictoral on my garden and chickens that was linked here. In November, I bought 13 acres along the Broad River in NE Georgia and am extablishing a small market farm. This will involve a lot more weeding and bug catching, so 75 more baby chickens are arriving next week.

Oh... judlew, last year I did a pictoral on my garden and chickens that was linked here. In November, I bought 13 acres along the Broad River in NE Georgia and am extablishing a small market farm. This will involve a lot more weeding and bug catching, so 75 more baby chickens are arriving next week.

Thanks, Eric. That's a great page. That's me who posted the question at the bottom, "how do you teach chickens what not to eat?" I found out for myself. I look forward to hearing about what you do with those 13 acres and 75 chickens.

Thanks to go vegan for the answers, too.

A friend of mine who's a vegetarian once wrote an essay responding to the people who complained that she wore leather shoes. Hypocritical, they said. And she said yes, hypocritical, but not pointless. Anything we do to alleiviate suffering, no matter how small, is significant.

Thanks, Eric. That's a great page. That's me who posted the question at the bottom, "how do you teach chickens what not to eat?" I found out for myself. I look forward to hearing about what you do with those 13 acres and 75 chickens.

Thanks to go vegan for the answers, too.

A friend of mine who's a vegetarian once wrote an essay responding to the people who complained that she wore leather shoes. Hypocritical, they said. And she said yes, hypocritical, but not pointless. Anything we do to alleiviate suffering, no matter how small, is significant.

veganism is privilaged.
even if I did spell that wrong.

veganism is privilaged.
even if I did spell that wrong.